Wednesday, May 30, 2007

Hope and morals - exclusively theistic?

Christians make some bold claims about Atheists – they often say we have no reason for hope and no reason to be moral. They couldn’t be further from the truth and I suggest that they apply some cerebral thinking to this idea.

First, there are tangible reasons to have hope and morals for Atheists - if you abandon the idea of a god all that is left is our planet, universe and the people around us. Many Atheists arrive at a humanistic view and philosophy because of this. Without a god, we are ultimately responsible to something much more tangible then an invisible friend and a book – we are responsible to each other.

My parents, my wife, my kids, my friends, my community, my species - they are my moral center. If I wrong them by causing them pain in anyway there is no god that will forgive me – I can only try to gain their forgiveness. If I hurt them I risk damaging their one and only shot at life. Their one shot - think about it. Christians can believe the damage they do to others isn't as severe because the victims have eternal souls, Atheists don't have that option. When we cause pain we know that we have stolen someone's time and everyone's time is limited. That is a much deeper and more profound reason to be moral then fear of punishment in an unproven afterlife. It's also a reason to have great hope for the future. If all humans placed the same value on human life as Atheists with a humanist philosophy do, then war and suffering would end very quickly. We put our faith in humanity. Humans can work together to make life better for everyone and it's in each individuals best intrests to do so. If I make peoples lives better, it in turn helps make my life better. That gives me real hope and a real reason to be moral.

Christian teachings in effect offer no hope at all – they relegate humans to servants that are here only for their god’s purpose. Where is the hope in that view? I suggest that it’s a very dark and depressing view of life. They are told to believe they have no purpose beyond that which an invisible god assigns them. They are asked to believe this without even any evidence for said god beyond a book. It’s a frightening message to a free thinker who cares about people before ideas. Christians seduce followers by making them fear hell or with promises of rewards and comfort with the idea of an invisible god who loves them and will forgive them for anything if they ask. They have no need to be moral as long as they can convince themselves that they will accept Christ into their hearts! Wow…crazy and dangerous, but true according to the bible. The bible asks them to be sheep and to put this invisible thing before the very people that care about them. I can see my kids and kiss my wife, hug my mom, work with my neighbor and friends and all humans - that is real and visible to anyone alive, and that is a FAR greater reason to be good and have hope then anything offered in the bible.

The bible counts on our selfish fears of death and our desire to live eternally rather then our visible and tangible purpose of teaching and raising children and making their lives great simply because they are conscious and have feelings. There is no hope in the bible and it teaches no reason to be moral beyond fear. It plays on our fears and selfish nature and then teaches that by succumbing to these human flaws you are actually being unselfish.

9 comments:

Atheism Sucks! sucks said...

RRS, Jr. is not really Miguel De Alba. Just to let you know.

The RRS, Jr. blog does NOT belong to any atheist.

ann said...

I suppose you're not counting subjective experience of God as evidence. You mentioned that there's no evidence beyond a book. Well, in a court of law, God would have many witnesses on his side. I see your point in a way but that's like saying, "besides all of your evidence, you don't have a case." By the way, that's not the only "proof" that I have so don't jump on that right away. I just wanted to ask you (first of all) whether you would consider subjective experience of God to be proof or not.

Vorax said...

I can't accept subjective evidence because our minds to easily tricked by chemical and electrical means.

For example, humans can have life changing experiences that are nothing more then temporary chemical imbalances in the brain. Lack of sleep, stress, physical damage, fear, elation, diet and meditation (prayer) can all lead to mind altered states because of chemical production in the breain. We are machines, and not very good ones I'm afraid. Just as you can drop a pin into your computer and scramble the ram and processor, our brains can be effected incredibly easily with tiny amounts of chemical imbalance. This can be illustrated by everything from narcotics, to neuron stimulation with electrodes, to isolated epilepsy (in particular, research Temporal Lobe Epilepsy -TLE), to waking dreams and more. Our experiences are incredibly unreliable as well as our memory.

No one should go by experience alone, it's simply not enough if you know enough about the brain. Only fact that's reproducible and verifiable by others will do. Subjective is just that...subjective - people may think they are great baseball players, but only by putting them in a game will they find out. Religion is the same, people may think they have experienced god, but if they are honest about their limitations they must at least concede they can't possibly know until they die.

Vorax said...

About RRS, Jr. - I didn't think so either, his comments are not Atheistic in nature...they are just retarded.

It's pretty pathetic when people pretend to be something in order to make it look bad. It shows a severe lack of faith in their position.

ann said...

I'll concede that I can't possibly know (FOR SURE) that God exists until I die...but neither do you know that God doesn't exist until you die. I also don't know FOR SURE that my brother is actually my brother. I mean, I've not done a DNA test.

The only reason I conceded that is because I am a "cerebral thinker." I know that many things can be explained naturally that might seem supernatural. But, I also know that some things might actually be supernatural and we (not a comment directly to you) think that we're too smart for such things.

Vorax said...

"I'll concede that I can't possibly know (FOR SURE) that God exists until I die...but neither do you know that God doesn't exist until you die. I also don't know FOR SURE that my brother is actually my brother. I mean, I've not done a DNA test."

Kudos to you Ann! I respect that you acknowledge that. I also happily concede that I can not know there is no god for sure.

"The only reason I conceded that is because I am a "cerebral thinker." "
Again, I respect that a lot.

"I know that many things can be explained naturally that might seem supernatural. But, I also know that some things might actually be supernatural and we (not a comment directly to you) think that we're too smart for such things."

I haven't seen any evidence of anything supernatural and thus I take the default position that there likely isn't anything supernatural. However, if someone shows otherwise, as someone who applies the scientific method, I must concede and change my position. If it comes along, I will change my mind.

To people believing they are to smart, I suggest that this is not the case. I don't know of any Atheist that takes this position, most are the same as mine - they have no proof and have to fall back to the default position of disbelief. In the mean time, they use science to ask and answer the questions in search of truths. One day they may uncover god, but it's looking less and less likely the more we understand about the universe. It doesnt' mean he is and if it's revealed that he is real, you will see a HUGE conversion of Atheists on the same day - becasue just like you we dont' hate any god or religion per se, we only differ in that we are unable to believe without evidence of it.

ann said...

I suppose I understand your position. You don't believe in God because it's the "default" when you don't have evidence, but you don't count much of the evidence. :)

ann said...

BTW, I am really enjoying your blog. I plan to stick around for a while. You have your beliefs and I have mine but it's interesting to talk to you. I hope you don't mind.

Vorax said...

Not at all Ann, please do :)